EICR codes - Help

[AJS87]

Carrying out an EICR on a farm and just after some advice regarding my codes.

This is only the supply to the barns. House has a separate supply.
TT arrangement with an electrode, although tbh the steelwork will be acting as the earth.
100mA upfront and 30mA protecting relevant circuits.
All Zs readings are within for the RCDs and very good for a TT.
This was inspected 3 years ago.

Photos 1-3
C3 - Switchgear and trunking system has signs of corrosion from the external influences.
C3 - Poor workmanship has been carried out to the Earthing / bonding connection. (Ze reading 22 Ohms)
C3 - 6mm conductors looped from adjacent MCB are protected by 63A MCB, however unlikely to be overloaded due to C20 MCB.

I have some queries regarding Photos 4-5

D.B. has asbestos flash guards - C3?
C2 - Users are presented with live parts upon fuses tripping.
C2 - Single OCPD does not isolate all 3 phases.

How do I verify the sizes of the fuse wires? Breaking capacity etc?

Any help would be appreciated…….although I’m sure there’ll be plenty of criticism too!

 

[Andy™]

C2 - Single OCPD does not isolate all 3 phases.

what makes you think thats a C2? cant say ive ver seen a 3 phase fuse

 

[AJS87]

what makes you think thats a C2? cant say ive ver seen a 3 phase fuse

Me neither, but all 3 fuses are operated by a isolator before opening the cover.

 

[kerching]

Probably some nice ACM in there as well

 

[steptoe]

Have you done an Ra on the rod,?
Do you know where the rod is,?
That would be my first question.
(or 2)

 

[AJS87]

Have you done an Ra on the rod,?
Do you know where the rod is,?
That would be my first question.
(or 2)

The rod is on the opposite side of the steel.

No I haven’t done a Ra because I’ve used test method 2 with the loop tester.
The structural steel will be acting as the earth compared to a earth rod.

 

[steptoe]

The rod is on the opposite side of the steel.

No I haven’t done a Ra because I’ve used test method 2 with the loop tester.
The structural steel will be acting as the earth compared to a earth rod.

Thats irrelevant
You cannot use the steelwork as a measuring point, you need to measure the rod, with all the other earth's disconnected.
I've no idea what a test method 2 is for measuring a TT system,

 

[AJS87]

Thats irrelevant
You cannot use the steelwork as a measuring point, you need to measure the rod, with all the other earth's disconnected.
I've no idea what a test method 2 is for measuring a TT system,

I have disconnected the earth and carried out a Ze.
There is no requirement to carry out a Ra just because it’s a TT system. The test can be carried out as normal practice in a TN system.

Your not getting my point. It’s perfectly acceptable to use the building structure as the earth. I have a 10mm earth from MET to structural steelwork and looped to a rod. Bonding or not. The rod will not be providing the bulk of my earth. The steelwork will.

 

[Fleeting]

Are you going to comment on the black insulation missing from those fuse carriers where what looks like white silicone has been employed.
There is no requirement to isolate all lines under fault conditions unless the three supply lighting with a common neutral, then they must be linked.

 

[AJS87]

Are you going to comment on the black insulation missing from those fuse carriers where what looks like white silicone has been employed.
There is no requirement to isolate all lines under fault conditions unless the three supply lighting with a common neutral, then they must be linked.

Why would I comment on that if the users already exposed to live parts upon opening the cover to replace a fuse??

Its not the fault condition I was referring to...it was a single device not isolating all line conductors for maintenance on circuit etc. (yes I know the main switch will suffice but hardly practical.)

 

[Fleeting]

The fuses require commenting on they are damaged. To isolate a circuit you remove all three fuse carriers and test the circuit to ensure it is isolated anyone carrying out maintenance should have the competence to realise this. From your comments I would question your knowledge and competence to inspect and test that installation.

 

[steptoe]

I have disconnected the earth and carried out a Ze.
There is no requirement to carry out a Ra just because it’s a TT system. The test can be carried out as normal practice in a TN system.

Thats news to me,
Mind, I haven't done much of that for a couple of years now.

Its perfectly acceptable to use the building structure as the earth. I have a 10mm earth from MET to structural steelwork and looped to a rod. Bonding or not. The rod will not be providing the bulk of my earth. The steelwork will.

When was it changed to allow that,?

 

[AJS87]

The fuses require commenting on they are damaged. To isolate a circuit you remove all three fuse carriers and test the circuit to ensure it is isolated anyone carrying out maintenance should have the competence to realise this. From your comments I would question your knowledge and competence to inspect and test that installation.

…..but yet again the user is exposed to live conductors before even accessing the fuses. Did you know the DNO use silicone to reinstate IP ratings on Henley blocks? Clearly not competent to carry out said works either!

……Its not me isolating a circuit I’m worried about. I understand you would pull all 3 fuses!!

 

[AJS87]

Thats news to me,
Mind, I haven't done much of that for a couple of years now.




When was it changed to allow that,?

I haven’t see a sparky carry out an Ra test on a TT for a very long time, a few times if that.

I haven’t got my regs book to hand but perfectly acceptable.
I will forward tomorrow.
Carried out install on farms before, bonding a great piece of conductive steel and knocking an earth rod in beside it. Makes no sense.

 

[Fleeting]

…..but yet again the user is exposed to live conductors before even accessing the fuses. Did you know the DNO use silicone to reinstate IP ratings on Henley blocks? Clearly not competent to carry out said works either!

……Its not me isolating a circuit I’m worried about. I understand you would pull all 3 fuses!!

Those fuse carriers are damaged what isn't you don't understand about that?
You understand you would pull all three fuses so what is the issue. You think those fuse carriers are fine but the use of separate protective devices on a triple-pole circuit isn't.

 

[Andy™]

When was it changed to allow that,?

'542.2.2(iv) Underground structural metalwork embedded in foundations or other metalwork installed in the foundations

was also in 17th. may have also been in 16th but ive not looked that far back

 

[AJS87]

Wow. What a helpful forum.

Appears nothing but a 'hieracy' that inisist on condescending comments.

I've got one man telling to me conduct a Ra when totally unnecessary and didn't even realise you could use the building structure as an earth.

.....and another insisting on a single code that inevitably has the same result as my observation.

'Friendliest' Forum

 

[Fleeting]

Apologies if we come across in this manner but my observations to your comments are correct.

 

[AJS87]

Apologies if we come across in this manner but my observations to your comments are correct.

If I'd have just posted photos, you'd have asked for my opinion.

I do have a degree of competency (according to certain governing bodies and various firms) and am extremely passionate about my job, however I'm not having the best time at the moment, hence swallowing my pride and posting some photos and observations for the world to see.
This board is older than me, but it also complied at some point and has been inspected over recent years with no amendment.

If I'm unsure I will ask, and I will ask people with the relevant experience, in order to try and progress. (None of us know everything).

I will try and explain my observations more clearly.

The earth conductor connection is poor. However how can this be 'potentially dangerous' if my Ze is more than satisfactory?

The D.B contains asbestos flashguards.
The user is exposed to live conductors upon entering the D.B. (Although a tool is required to access)
How am I supposed to verify fuse wires for circuit details? Surely I can't put a LIM as I cant prove adequate overload protection for outgoing circuits.

Yes, the possible isolation of 1 phase on a 3 phase circuit is my overthinking.

I don't want to overcode. I don't want to undercode. I want it to be right and I want to understand where you think I'm going wrong and please explain.

I take pride in my career, but by all means do not claim to be an expert on EICRs.

 

[Fleeting]

When the fuse carriers are removed are there additional plastic inserts covering live parts very old units never had this provision but "newer" versions did although they can be missing but this was the nature of the dist board. The damaged fuse carriers in my opinion are a Code 2.
If the connection of the earthing conductor is poor then this should attract a Code 2 although very often with TT the conductor is very just often earthing the electrode with the fault path following routes of less impedance.
Judging semi-enclosed fuse element sizes can be difficult if they are clearly not the originals and experience plays a part here. I carry multiple sizes for comparison and if in doubt I just replace them. Do not forget to add the correction factor of 0.725 when assessing current carrying capacity of conductors protected by these fuses.
Asbestos flash guards I tend to Code 3 although strictly speaking they are a health issue as opposed to an electrical problem.