Electric meter - end of life

[johnb2713]

fact is, frequency changes often. its always around 50 but does vary depending on demand vs supply, and effectively could be used to determine charging more for using electricity at 'peak' times vs 'off peak' times

Thats the crux of it, it could be used, it most likely wont be used because they will protect the grid before it gets to that stage.

 

[Andy™]

The ability to turn the supply off is what I'm referring to, the people that use the supply and refuse to pay

but what about those who do pay but the supplier is still getting it wrong? been plenty cases where meters have been mixed up, readings etc have been incorrect and supplier is threating to disconnect supply / install prepayment meter, even though the customer hasn't actually done anything wrong

 

[Andy™]

Thats the crux of it, it could be used, it most likely wont be used because they will protect the grid before it gets to that stage.

protecting the grid is important, and disconencting areas to prevent a failure is a good thing. but that's irrelevant here, its just something you've added

everyday, frequency changes as demand changes. something on TV millions are watching and advert break? chances are many will go put the kettle on. frequency will drop. if everyone gets an EV and plugs it in to charge when they get home,frequency will drop. will it drop enough for national grid to be concerned about and start disconnecting areas as you seem to have a fascination about? no likely (unless there are bigger problems like powerstations shutting down without warning). will it be an excuse to charge more for the electricity then since for those few minutes/hours there is more demand than supply? someone will get richer from it so yes

 

[ProDave]

and is that because it's a smart meter? - NO is it because the system has been incorrectly configured - YES

Yes but with an old school dual rate meter, it is all pre determines with hardware, the off peak time comes, the meter switches to cheap rate and turns on the E7 output. Nothing there to go wrong apart from a hardware fault.

With a smart meter, the switching output and metering rate functions are separate to it is possible, as has happened, to have the cheap rate periods not aligning with the times the meter is metering at the cheap rate, and when it goes wrong nobody at the call centre understands what you are on about.

So a perfect example if you design a system that CAN be configured wrong, then sooner or later someone WILL configure it wrong.

It would be perhaps excusable if the people in the call centres could actually see the metering and switching times on your meter on their screen and correct it as soon as you inform them, but it appears from the threads I keep seeing, they can't and don't even understand there is a problem.

 

[mike2vc]

I am very grateful for all the replies. I side with ProDave, Sharpend, Murdock, and Richard-the-ninth for all the reasons mentioned. Thank you.

 

[johnb2713]

but what about those who do pay but the supplier is still getting it wrong? been plenty cases where meters have been mixed up, readings etc have been incorrect and supplier is threating to disconnect supply / install prepayment meter, even though the customer hasn't actually done anything wrong

The exact same situation could occur with a standard meter too, the difference being the time it takes to disconnect and restore a supply plus the more likely mis reading of a standard meter.

 

[johnb2713]

protecting the grid is important, and disconencting areas to prevent a failure is a good thing. but that's irrelevant here, its just something you've added

everyday, frequency changes as demand changes. something on TV millions are watching and advert break? chances are many will go put the kettle on. frequency will drop. if everyone gets an EV and plugs it in to charge when they get home,frequency will drop. will it drop enough for national grid to be concerned about and start disconnecting areas as you seem to have a fascination about? no likely (unless there are bigger problems like powerstations shutting down without warning). will it be an excuse to charge more for the electricity then since for those few minutes/hours there is more demand than supply? someone will get richer from it so yes

Something I've added? it was purely in response to the drop in frequency that youve added!

All new charge points have the ability to be controlled by grid load management to prevent this situation arising, the grid load reduction schemes are also in place for the same reason therefore making megabucks out of it (something which youve added and is irrelevant here) wont be happening.

 

[Andy™]

The exact same situation could occur with a standard meter too, the difference being the time it takes to disconnect and restore a supply plus the more likely mis reading of a standard meter.

same situation definately can occour with a standard meter, however they can't just turn that off by pressing a few buttons on a computer without warning & gaining access

 

[johnb2713]

Yes but with an old school dual rate meter, it is all pre determines with hardware, the off peak time comes, the meter switches to cheap rate and turns on the E7 output. Nothing there to go wrong apart from a hardware fault.

And when the time is wrong or a mechanical failure occurs (more likely than a smart meter), youre scuppered.

With a smart meter, the switching output and metering rate functions are separate to it is possible, as has happened, to have the cheap rate periods not aligning with the times the meter is metering at the cheap rate, and when it goes wrong nobody at the call centre understands what you are on about.

Absolutely, garbage in, garbage out. Not the Smart Meter at fault though, it needs correct support services. It is also possible with a Smart Meter to give a mid afternoon boost if theres a surplus of electricity available.

So a perfect example if you design a system that CAN be configured wrong, then sooner or later someone WILL configure it wrong.

Agreed, education is the solution to this.

It would be perhaps excusable if the people in the call centres could actually see the metering and switching times on your meter on their screen and correct it as soon as you inform them, but it appears from the threads I keep seeing, they can't and don't even understand there is a problem.

I wonder in % terms how many people have issues compared to the number of Smart Meters out there?

 

[johnb2713]

same situation definately can occour with a standard meter, however they can't just turn that off by pressing a few buttons on a computer without warning & gaining access

And ditto for restoring the supply after, not as easy as with a Smart Meter. As we have already established, it's not without warning.

 

[johnb2713]

I am very grateful for all the replies. I side with ProDave, Sharpend, Murdock, and Richard-the-ninth for all the reasons mentioned. Thank you.

No problem at all, always good to hear different viewpoints and angles, I could agree with them but then we'd both be wrong LOL

 

[Andy™]

Something I've added? it was purely in response to the drop in frequency that youve added!

All new charge points have the ability to be controlled by grid load management to prevent this situation arising, the grid load reduction schemes are also in place for the same reason therefore making megabucks out of it (something which youve added and is irrelevant here) wont be happening.

frequency can be used to determine demand vs supply, which could in theory be used to change rates. you're the one who jumped in with

Surely they would switch loads off if we got close to this rather than dropping frequency and everything flat out.

which is what would happen if demand was much higher than supply and enough to cause a problem

frequency now is 49.935, up from 49.86 at 2140, which means there's slightly more demand than supply. earlier this evening at 1950 it was 50.11 so more supply than demand. its varied a fair bit between over and under 50... like i said originally, this could be used to determine if to charge a higher rate....

 

[Andy™]

I wonder in % terms how many people have issues compared to the number of Smart Meters out there?

id expect very few, however the fact that there are issues would suggest there are still issues that need to be fixed, however that's going to be determinate by who get the most benefit / £££ from it. fault that's causing suppliers to loose money will be fixed a lot sooner than errors that work in their favour, even if they ultimately have to pay their customers back

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Ok...
I have sort of Skip-read/Fully-read/All/Most/Some of the previous post...

And.. I am sure we ALL know the interweb can be a bit of a mixed bag of truth / half-truth / Complete Cr4p & Garbage.....

So.. all I can say as FACT... is we have had Smart Meters since July 2008..
A mere 14years & 4 months+ and I don't really recognise many of the objections posted?????

(The only problem we had was when the electric meter went back round the clock to "00000" in April 2019,
and for a while it couldn't work out the bills so reverted to Estimated numbers.)

But other than that, we have been pretty chuffed with accurate, real time correct bills for BOTH electric & Gas monthly..
without the hassle of logging on to input meter readings.. (or having bods visit us to read the meters)..

Still a bit confused as to why so many are scared/worried/sceptical etc.. etc...

 

[johnb2713]

Still a bit confused as to why so many are scared/worried/sceptical etc.. etc...

Absolutely agree, amazing volume that the above use to spread their misconceptions too

 

[johnb2713]

like i said originally, this could be used to determine if to charge a higher rate....

You have absolutely no evidence that this is being considered yet are putting this as a disadvantage of a Smart Meter to consumers. Conspiracy theory gone mad IMHO.

 

[Andy™]

You have absolutely no evidence that this is being considered yet are putting this as a disadvantage of a Smart Meter to consumers. Conspiracy theory gone mad IMHO.

you're right, i have no evidence that it is being considered, but like i said, its something that could be done

(and for what its worth, i do have a 'smart' meter at the workshop. its fairly dumb though and doesn't communicate....)

 

[BorisJ]

Intelligent Tariffs?

You mean they can increase the price at dinner time. No thanks.

See the amount you're spending on the in house display?

Not necessary, you can see that on your meter. Novelty soon wears off.

Compare costs of using gas heating / electric heating?

Gas is around 10.3p/kWh, electricity is around 35.3p/kWh. Why do you need a stupid meter to compare.

Power saving sessions?

What are they and why do you need a stupid meter?

They all seem like advantages to me which you cant have without a smart meter.

You can, I've just shown you how.

What advantages does the supplier get?

He gets a big incentive by the government to waste money installing as many aa possible and lie by telling us they are free.He can also manuplicate tariffs at dinner time etc and hope we don't notice.

 

[johnb2713]

you're right, i have no evidence that it is being considered, but like i said, its something that could be done

But such a negative way, an alternative view could be when the frequency is high, they could use it to offer cheaper electricity!

(and for what its worth, i do have a 'smart' meter at the workshop. its fairly dumb though and doesn't communicate....)

Youve probably upset, it overheard your conversations about smart meters

 

[Andy™]

But such a negative way, an alternative view could be when the frequency is high, they could use it to offer cheaper electricity!

you know just as well as everyone else that the 'cheaper' leccy would be the normal cost, and the 'normal' rate will be premium