Electric test fail.

[daveg]

I have just had a test done on a property and it has failed on the following:-
Upgrade mains tails and earth to the distribution board -Tails go through separate holes Main earth is undersized
Replace MCB’sBG - B20 MCB to replace the incompatible MCBC2 no ring continuity - BG B20 MCB needed

I have given the go ahead to do the work but am puzzled by why it is needed. The wiring has not been touched since the last check 5 years ago which found no problems. Have the rules changed or did the previous electrician miss these faults?

 

[roys]

How much time and rigor was spent on the last test? It has been known, not personally, for £75 to be paid and the tester not even get out of his van, called a drive by. A proper test should take hours and cost a lot more than £75. Maybe you had a better tester this time.

 

[daveg]

I don't know how much this test cost yet or how long it took - it was arranged by a letting agent. The first test was £132 +VAT.
Are you saying that the work was needed 5 years ago?

 

[ProDave]

The meter tails through separate holes is fixed by taking them out and putting a hacksaw cut between the 2 holes then replacing them with the correct size.

Sounds like a wrong make MCB has been fitted, simple to swap for correct make.

The more worrying thing is no ring continuity. Rather than find the fault the tester suggests a smaller MCB to make it a radial circuit. That would make me doubt the integrity of the tester. If you really can't find the cause of the broken ring, I would be splitting it and making it two radial circuits.

Unlike a car MOT test where the tests required are well defined ant the testers are properly trained, An EICR is much more subjective. What codes has he given to these faults? Only a C2 or C1 needs fixing, C3 is advisory.

 

[Fleeting]

No ring continuity could mean it was once a ring final but for some reason it is no longer or was never a ring final. This needs investigating as opposed to a quick fix.
Can you post the report with personal details redacted?
I doubt the earthing conductor (incorrectly termed main earth) would warrant a Code 2 unless it was a piece of wet string nor the supply conductors (tails) through separate holes.

 

[daveg]

Thank you both for the information. I don't think a certificate has been issued but have asked the letting agent to forward it if they have it- the letting agent just passed on the message that it had failed - I have only seen an estimate for the works which listed the reasons they were needed.

The requirement for both tails to go through the same hole seems a bit strange - does anyone know how this makes it better / safer?

This is only a small flat over one floor so it does seem a bit lazy not to at least try and find the break in the ring circuit.

 

[Fleeting]

If it is a ferrous enclosure they should go through the same hole but the chances of it ever being dangerous are less than zero.
Commit to nothing until you see the report.

 

[daveg]

It is a metal enclosure he even moans about it in the estimate "Board is a poor metal clad BG board and the cover is bent a lot. I could barely get the cover back on." and I thought metal enclosures were all the rage these days.

I asked the agent for the report but they sent me the old one which was satisfactory with one C3 advisory for Lights R1 + R2 reading high - is that related to the problem the new guy found?

 

[ProDave]

This is only a small flat over one floor so it does seem a bit lazy not to at least try and find the break in the ring circuit.

This is where communication between you and the tester before the test is important.

If he is sent to "test" than that is what he does. I prefer to talk to my customers and at least have a quick look to see if you can find the fault.

This is a bit like an MOT tester failing your car because a number plate light is not working. Yes he is right to do that, but I would infinitely prefer he replaced the blown bulb and passed it.

 

[Fleeting]

It is a metal enclosure he even moans about it in the estimate "Board is a poor metal clad BG board and the cover is bent a lot. I could barely get the cover back on." and I thought metal enclosures were all the rage these days.

I asked the agent for the report but they sent me the old one which was satisfactory with one C3 advisory for Lights R1 + R2 reading high - is that related to the problem the new guy found?

High R1+R2 should have warranted a bit more than a Code 3.
Sounds like both tests have been by incompetent people. The first should have picked up the tails through separate holes assuming nothing has changed and it sounds like the second has been a bit harsh with some Coding and has jumped to conclusions.

 

[daveg]

Ideally he would have called me but to be fair he was instructed by the agent and did not have my details. I do give the agent authority to give the go ahead on small jobs or when using a couple of contractors I know and trust but at £288 the agent decided to get my permission first. Most people are honest but there are a few chancers / idiots around I had a plumber claim all the radiator valves needed changing at the cost of hundreds because the small plastic caps were missing and not available separately. He was sent a link to an ebay search for "rad caps" and told never to go near one of my properties ever again.

 

[binky]

It is a metal enclosure he even moans about it in the estimate "Board is a poor metal clad BG board and the cover is bent a lot. I could barely get the cover back on." and I thought metal enclosures were all the rage these days

Quality of the board is irrelevant, poor fitting is another thing. Can't say I've had any real issues with BG boards, and yes, metal is all the rage.

If you can't get the report, please post previous one as this will tell us what size the meter tails and earth are.

 

[daveg]

Thanks for the information - what does high R1 + R2 mean? Seems like it has fixed itself now as the new guy has not picked it up.

 

[binky]

Thanks for the information - what does high R1 + R2 mean? Seems like it has fixed itself now as the new guy has not picked it up.

Ok, we look for the resistance of a circuit by linking live and neutral and testing a test result at the end of the circuit. For a lighting circuit on a 6amp MCB, it should be under 7.76 ohms. Sometimes you can have a slightly highish reading of say 6ohms which experience would tell a good tester should be nearer say 2.5 ohms. The circuit is not a fail under such circumstances, but some will note it on the cert as it may indicate a potential fault developing. Some will not note it, as it's still in spec. This is a common occurrence on test reports, as opinions vary as to note it or not.

 

[Fleeting]

Ok, we look for the resistance of a circuit by linking live and neutral and testing a test result at the end of the circuit. For a lighting circuit on a 6amp MCB, it should be under 7.76 ohms. Sometimes you can have a slightly highish reading of say 6ohms which experience would tell a good tester should be nearer say 2.5 ohms. The circuit is not a fail under such circumstances, but some will note it on the cert as it may indicate a potential fault developing. Some will not note it, as it's still in spec. This is a common occurrence on test reports, as opinions vary as to note it or not.

Would would have to anticipate the length of circuit.

 

[daveg]

Here is a screenshot of the first test with the bit about the tails and the earth.

Binky - thanks for that - I had a look on the report and for the lights it lists under the maximum z box 5.87 ohms. If that is the reading that should be under 7.76 ohms maybe the first guy was just making a note of it because it was a bit higher than normal but still in limits.

 

[binky]

Would would have to anticipate the length of circuit.

yep, not usually too hard in a small house in my experience.

 

[binky]

Here is a screenshot of the first test with the bit about the tails and the earth.

Binky - thanks for that - I had a look on the report and for the lights it lists under the maximum z box 5.87 ohms. If that is the reading that should be under 7.76 ohms maybe the first guy was just making a note of it because it was a bit higher than normal but still in limits.

25 meter tails, 16mm main earth and 10mm bonding - I would ask for the report in writing and get someone else to have a look at any remedials. You don't have to use the same electrican to do the remedials, and from those sizes, if he is recommending replacement of the meter tails, and upgrading the main earth, then the phrases that spring to mind are 'work generation' and

 

[daveg]

Thanks Binkyl here is a quote from the letting agent when I asked for the report because he might be a bit over keen "Interesting, but my guy said he was super busy so wouldn’t request unnecessary work."

If I get a different electrician to do the remedials, if they are necessary, won't he have to do all the tests again or can I rely on the old report along with a receipt for the remedial work?

 

[daveg]

I found a picture of the meter cupboard from the last check-in report. The meter tails do have separate holes in the consumer unit so the second guy is correct. I have no idea what size the tails or earth cables are but maybe someone here might able to tell.