Electrical Installation Condition Report - Bathroom light

[CinnamonDonkey]

Hi,

I recently had a Electrical Installation Condition Report done and one of the issues that came back was an 'F/I' on the ceiling mounted bathroom light:

    "F/I - Unsure of bathroom light IP rating. "

I contacted the guy and pointed out (to the best of my knowledge) that the light fitting is not immediately above the bath or shower but in the 0.6m zone to the outside of it, ceiling mounted, so based on my understanding it falls into zone 2 which would require a IP44 light fitting. 

                        IP44 Requirements: 

                                    - Protection against live parts inside the enclosure by objects greater than 1mm in size.

                                    - Protection against ingress of small solid foreign bodies greater than 1mm (excluding ventalation openings).

                                    - Water splashed against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect.

Based on simple observation, it does in deed meet all the above requirements.

His response was:

"There were no IP ratings that we could see on the light and therefore we are unsure of its rating.  Is it suitable at all for a bathroom in terms of steam ingress, let alone suitable for its zone?"

Let me just point out that as I am over 200 miles away from the property he is fully aware that I can't just pop over to deal with things and that he will most likely be the one doing any work.

It he just taking the Mickey?

 

[Lurch]

What's the ceiling height? Zone 2 stops at 2.25m.

I'd be surprised though if the fitting wasn't IPX4, I think he's just being over-zealous here, but he's not wrong either. If it really is in zone 2 (which I suspect it isn't) then just get him to fit a new IPX4 but leave the old one on site.

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

What's the ceiling height? Zone 2 stops at 2.25m.

I need to get someone to measure that for me. If it were outside zone 2 then it would only have to follow the same rules as any other house light. Also, is that simply floor-to-ceiling or nearest water source to ceiling.

In the mean time, worse case, assuming it does not fall outside zone 2 is steam ingress protection a requirement?

Surely if the requirement is IP44 and the specification of IP44 does not specify protection against steam specifically then all is well. It either has to comply with IP44 or it doesn't.

 

[Lurch]

It either has to comply with IP44 or it doesn't.

Precisely. If it is IP44 it is IP44, every IP44 item is no more or less IP44 rated than the next (on paper). There is no need to find something that is IP44 + steamproof.

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

So my question is:

   Does a bathroom light in Zone 2 need to be steam proof or is this just an excuse for F/I - i.e. more money?

In his own words - "The testing process doesn’t afford enough time to investigate these items fully and therefore F/I is required, usually on a time/material basis."

He could have reasonably checked the light with the time given and made an experienced judgement on weather the light is dangerous or not.

 

[Lurch]

Steamproof has noting to do with it (directly). It is either rated as required by the regulations or it isn't. So if it is IPX4 then it is good, if it isn't then it isn't, assuming that IPX4 is a requirement.

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

Thank you for taking the time to respond @Lurch, your advice is always appreciated.

OK  - So I have had a good google, unfortunately my own copy of wiring regs is out of date at 11th Ed. What I can find says:

"Any wiring system or equipment selected and installed must be suitable for its location and able to operate satisfactorily without deterioration during its working life. The presence of water can occur in several ways (for example, splashing, steam/humidity, condensation) and at each location where it is expected to be present its effects must be considered and suitable protection must be provided.

Consequently, Section 701 requires that electrical equipment in zones 1 and 2 shall have a degree of protection of at least IPX4. "


The specification for IPX4: http://www.dsmt.com/resources/ip-rating-chart/, means that it only has to be splash proof - it does not specify steam proof.

Personally I think this guy is taking the Mick.

 

[binky]

many older lights are not clearly marked for IP ratings, but, my general rule of thumb is that if the lamp is basically enclosed in a glass ball or similar type encasing, then it is probably compliant. If the lamp is exposed to air / steam / water, then it probably doesn't comply.

 

[Murdoch]

So he's FI'ed the item - is the EICR satisfactory or unsatisfactory?

Could you get somebody to measure the height AND take a picture?

 

[Andy™]

maybe you had the same muppet from an EICR i saw the other day. 'sockets upstairs too close to floor - C1'

 

[Murdoch]

maybe you had the same muppet from an EICR i saw the other day. 'sockets upstairs too close to floor - C1'

you're joking.......

 

[Andy™]

you're joking.......

keep an eye on the black museum, photo coming up shortly

 

[Doc Hudson]

It he just taking the Mickey?

I am inclined to think he Is probably talking out of his rear end, this info sheet may help clarify for you what is permitted in bath/shower rooms;  https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Firstlight/Zones.pdf   I don't recall any regulations stating bathroom lights must be steam proof. There is specific note about being able to prevent water ingress when located in areas that hosing down may occur such as communal bathrooms.  And the general regulation 512.2.1, regarding account of conditions likely to be encountered.  However I think building regulations state that where light fittings such as down lights penetrate a bathroom ceiling, they need to be constructed so as to prevent the passage of steam and moisture into the roof void above. But a surface mounted fitting, especially if it is outside of the zones, could easily be no more susceptible to steam in a bathroom than some kitchen unit lights near to a hob with some pots boiling creating steam and moisture in the air. A balance of common sense is needed. Directly above a shower enclosure would need some care but further away is unlikely to get excessive quantities of steam in normal use, as if you did I fear the greater worry would be the build up of mold and damp patches on your walls and ceiling, more than the type of light fitting you have.

Doc H.

 

[phil d]

I think he's thinking in terms of suitability for the environment it's fitted in, I've seen plenty of fittings corroded through steam, however if the fitting was not corroded but had the potential to corrode I'd probably just point it out to the client and recommend it be changed.

 

[Doc Hudson]

I think he's thinking in terms of suitability for the environment it's fitted in, I've seen plenty of fittings corroded through steam, however if the fitting was not corroded but had the potential to corrode I'd probably just point it out to the client and recommend it be changed.

That's more likely natural wear and tear, I've seen loads of outdoor lights, garage lights, kitchen lights and the such like, looking rather ropey and corroded over time due to general moist and or cold environments. however they were all an appropriate fitting when installed.

Doc H.

 

[Lurch]

I should have taken a picture of the fitting in a bathroom on job the other day, one of those fancy things with loads of arms sticking everywhere, mains voltage and all that, directly over the bath, and the ceiling wasn't all that high. Rented property, no EICR/certificate of any kind and no chance it would ever get changed.

 

[phil d]

I should have taken a picture of the fitting in a bathroom on job the other day, one of those fancy things with loads of arms sticking everywhere, mains voltage and all that, directly over the bath, and the ceiling wasn't all that high. Rented property, no EICR/certificate of any kind and no chance it would ever get changed.

I had one of those just before Christmas, one of those round plates with 3 GU10 spots on, right over the bath and a low ceiling, not a chance!

 

[Slowhand]

Thank you for taking the time to respond @Lurch, your advice is always appreciated.

OK  - So I have had a good google, unfortunately my own copy of wiring regs is out of date at 11th Ed. What I can find says:

"Any wiring system or equipment selected and installed must be suitable for its location and able to operate satisfactorily without deterioration during its working life. The presence of water can occur in several ways (for example, splashing, steam/humidity, condensation) and at each location where it is expected to be present its effects must be considered and suitable protection must be provided.

Consequently, Section 701 requires that electrical equipment in zones 1 and 2 shall have a degree of protection of at least IPX4. "


The specification for IPX4: http://www.dsmt.com/resources/ip-rating-chart/, means that it only has to be splash proof - it does not specify steam proof.

Personally I think this guy is taking the Mick.

11th edition of the regs covers the years 1939 to 1948.

That makes it 69 years out of date.

I'll give you a fiver for it.

 

[Lurch]

11th edition of the regs covers the years 1939 to 1948.

That makes it 69 years out of date.

Slightly more useful in this scenario than my 10th edition.

 

[CinnamonDonkey]

@binky : That's exactly my point. I would expect an experienced electrician to apply some common sense and even if there is no visible label they should be able to use past experience to make a sensible and safe judgement call. 

I've uploaded a photo - maybe I'm being unreasonable or just missing the point.

The white main dome is glass and it fits flush to the backing plate also made of glass. The light assembly fits flush with the ceiling. The only metal is inside the unit and can only be accessed by removing the three thumb screws on the bottom.

It was purchased as a bathroom light and I don't think I am being unreasonable in suggesting it's going to be splash proof and would meet the fairly loose requirements of IPx4.