It had to happen!

[Murdoch]

I’ve just looked on Autotrader and the cheapest EV is an 11 year old Nissan Leaf @ £4700

which makes me wonder how good its batteries are, and given how many sub £1000 cars are on the road, suggests that affordability WILL be an issue for a while

 

[johnb2713]

You appear to have the incorrect assumption that the bulk of the population could currently afford to buy a new ICE?

Look around as you drive, many cars are less than 3 years old.

Many cannot.. So you need to be comparing what EV's are currently available within a budget of those who are buying from the second-hand ICE market.

There are more coming on the market as time goes on. A quick look on Autotrader shows 150 under £10k and 350 under £12k

For more years than I can remember the bulk of new car sales with ICE have actually been company cars, fleet rental vehicles etc..
And loads of the joe public wanting to buy their own car have been primarily from the second-hand market.

Agreed

Currently EV's are still well outside of the budget of the average private purchaser.

In your opinion...... in my view they are within reach of the average private purchaser as can be seen with the uptake.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Well if I don't boot it, I can drive 320 miles in cold, wet, winter weather if needed before stopping, closer to 400 in summer. This isn't the problem many thunk it is anymore.

You're right about infrastructure though for those who can't charge at home overnight. It needs a lot of work.

Here again with range you are missing the point about how lots of real people live.
With families more wide-spread around the country..
(Statistically loads of kids end up settling down in their university town.)

Yes you can do a reasonable single long journey... But can you travel back the same distance after 10mins refueling?

I have children, (grown-up), living in Sheffield, Portsmouth, Cheltenham.. we are in the Midlands
When we go visiting them, we typically don't just sit in the house, (or at a motorway service station), waiting to top up the car..
We travel round visiting places.. then travel back home.. Maximising our family time together.. with ZERO time spent recharging cars to get back home!

As well as the normal visiting trips, we then also get more urgent unplanned trips.. Which EV's simply cannot currently cope with.
(Over the past 2 years we've had, death of my mom, premature still birth of my second grandchild..
Where pretty much at the drop of a hat, our daily plans have changed, and we need to be somewhere else ASAP with several hundred miles to cover several days in row).
last year when our granddaughter died we were up and down to Cheltenham 4 days on the trot..
sometimes at obscure times of day, sometimes with quick wash, eat change of clothes.. travel back turnaround times..
and/or whilst still needing to do other local journey picking up shopping etc..

Our car can do around 600mile on a full tank that take less than 10mins to fill including paying the cashier!
When one of my daughters was 21, while at Southampton uni..
We did a round trip in our people carrier collecting other family members to go down to see her..

Home To Worcester To Bath To Egham To Southampton.. Back to Egham Back to Bath Back to Worcester Back home..
All on a single tank of fuel..
All in a single day., If we had been confined to using EV's..
either my daughter wouldn't of had here 21st family celebration...
OR.. I guess we would have needed multiple EV's from each location doing multiple journeys?

If all my children had EV's and they visited us...
Then all need to recharge to get back home... No idea where the heck they could all plug in!!!

Maybe I'm wrong but I get the impression that some EV owners have never had to make an urgent journey in their life,
or they all live very local to their family loved ones and workplace?

 

[Murdoch]

Given there appears to be absolutely no joined up thinking , charging is only really ”easy” for the fortunate people with their own drive or workplace with chargers

the UK has a long way to go to change, and this will take time.

when I hang up my tools, I have been considering buying a small EV, or a small ICE - I’m undecided ATM , but given the misses has a reasonable ICE car for journeys, logic says small EV is probably the right choice

BUT I’m very wary of charging by the mile being introduced

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Look around as you drive, many cars are less than 3 years old.

And even more are over 3 years old.. But proves nothing,
as just because you see a car less than 3 years old it does not actually mean it is a privatly owned / financed vechile?

Fleet & rental sector are still the largest purchasers and they will be the newer vehilces..

I look at the age of the cars parked on the driveways of the average family around my local area..

 

[johnb2713]

Here again with range you are missing the point about how lots of real people live.
With families more wide-spread around the country..
(Statistically loads of kids end up settling down in their university town.)

Most real people dont live like this.

Yes you can do a reasonable single long journey... But can you travel back the same distance after 10mins refueling?

Can you do the journey whilst the car is refuelled while you sleep / eat / see a show / shopping etc? Modern EV's recharge very quickly, 18 minutes to recharge 80% of range.

I have children, (grown-up), living in Sheffield, Portsmouth, Cheltenham.. we are in the Midlands
When we go visiting them, we typically don't just sit in the house, (or at a motorway service station), waiting to top up the car..
We travel round visiting places.. then travel back home.. Maximising our family time together.. with ZERO time spent recharging cars to get back home!

and of course this is a daily event? You really are a bottles half empty kind of person. I'm sure you dont sit in the house nor do I believe you're constantly on the move either. Most places that are visitor attractions / towns / shopping centres will have charging facilities (Meadowhall at Sheffield for example has just short of 100) plug in and top up whilst your pursue your leisure activities.

As well as the normal visiting trips, we then also get more urgent unplanned trips.. Which EV's simply cannot currently cope with.
(Over the past 2 years we've had, death of my mom, premature still birth of my second grandchild..

A B C - Always Be Charging, the EV is then fuelled and good to go at a moments notice. Need to refuel on the way, 18 minutes after 3 hours of driving, you should take a break anyway

Where pretty much at the drop of a hat, our daily plans have changed, and we need to be somewhere else ASAP with several hundred miles to cover several days in row).
last year when our granddaughter died we were up and down to Cheltenham 4 days on the trot..
sometimes at obscure times of day, sometimes with quick wash, eat change of clothes.. travel back turnaround times..
and/or whilst still needing to do other local journey picking up shopping etc..

All of that possible with an EV with no need to stop at a petrol station.

Our car can do around 600mile on a full tank that take less than 10mins to fill including paying the cashier!
When one of my daughters was 21, while at Southampton uni..
We did a round trip in our people carrier collecting other family members to go down to see her..

And your point being? I can sleep overnight to find my car fully charged sat waiting to go. My solar refuels it free of charge and I'm not causing pollution killing the children of tomorrow.

Home To Worcester To Bath To Egham To Southampton.. Back to Egham Back to Bath Back to Worcester Back home..
All on a single tank of fuel..
All in a single day., If we had been confined to using EV's..
either my daughter wouldn't of had here 21st family celebration...
OR.. I guess we would have needed multiple EV's from each location doing multiple journeys?

Complete rubbish, you havent researched your subject well

If all my children had EV's and they visited us...
Then all need to recharge to get back home... No idea where the heck they could all plug in!!!

Oh no, what a problem OMG, stop the roll out

Maybe I'm wrong but I get the impression that some EV owners have never had to make an urgent journey in their life,
or they all live very local to their family loved ones and workplace?

You dont like the idea of EV and thats fine but frankly the crap youre coming out with to support your view is ridiculous. I've done urgent journeys at the drop of a hat in my i3 and the range isnt great at 140 miles but it wasnt impossible and 99.99% of the time it fit's perfectly. To site the exceptional situations to justify running a diesel is a very weak angle.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

In your opinion...... in my view they are within reach of the average private purchaser as can be seen with the uptake.

I think you have a blinkered view of the state of the economy and the purchasing power of the average family?
The actual average wage for the UK population is a lot lower that many people imagine.

and of course this is a daily event? You really are a bottles half empty kind of person. I'm sure you dont sit in the house nor do I believe you're constantly on the move either. Most places that are visitor attractions / towns / shopping centres will have charging facilities (Meadowhall at Sheffield for example has just short of 100) plug in and top up whilst your pursue your leisure activities.

Erm... I wouldn't call shopping at meadow hall a leisure activity..
And there are zero charge point if you want to actual go and do something in the country side..
Try driving 15 or 20 mins out of Sheffield to maybe enjoy some family time walking around the hills / dams etc..

Oh no sorry a wouldn't be able to.. As my car won't get me back home!!

You dont like the idea of EV and thats fine but frankly the crap youre coming out with to support your view is ridiculous. I've done urgent journeys at the drop of a hat in my i3 and the range isnt great at 140 miles but it wasnt impossible and 99.99% of the time it fit's perfectly. To site the exceptional situations to justify running a diesel is a very weak angle.

Incorrect again.. The examples are not exeptional...
Just things that can and do happen with families who don't all live on each others doorsteps.

It is those who can afford EV who are currently the exception..

The reality is that EV's are improving... But they are nowhere near as far advanced as many would claim..
In a nutshell if currently our only personal transport was an EV, then 90% of normal family activities would be severely impacted.


And please do NOT suggest that the premature death of a granddaughter and there need to do multiple longer journeys, several days in succession to support family members is crap and not a normal need.

I know of numerous friends and colleagues who have had to urgent long distances because a family member was ill..
I guess we will have to make sure no one has a serious illness unless the EV is charged and ready...

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Used EV's are way out the pockets of 75% of the population

from what I see in my client base the only people with EVs are the well off …..

Agreed..
That is what I also see during my normal daily work..
Most of those with EV are either company cars or people sufficiently well off to have both and EV and one or more other ICE cars parked on the drive!!

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

Polite Reminder: (To all in the debate) Please keep it "nice" and don't be abusive. (I don't want to have to lock posts)

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I can sleep overnight to find my car fully charged sat waiting to go. My solar refuels it free of charge and I'm not causing pollution killing the children of tomorrow.

Erm... I very much doubt you are not causing pollution..

 

[PaulieN]

I’ve just looked on Autotrader and the cheapest EV is an 11 year old Nissan Leaf @ £4700

which makes me wonder how good its batteries are, and given how many sub £1000 cars are on the road, suggests that affordability WILL be an issue for a while

If it's the one I've seen, there's a clue on the picture showing the dash, the battery health bars that show on a Leaf. They are to the right of the state of battery charge bars and on the car you mention it only shows 4, it started with 12!! As a result, It's showing a fully charged range of 36 miles!! That's why it's "cheap" (although at almost 20% of it's new cost with a knackered battery that's subjective!!) Leafs with good batteries that age still go for well over £7k!

 

[PaulieN]

Look around as you drive, many cars are less than 3 years old.


There are more coming on the market as time goes on. A quick look on Autotrader shows 150 under £10k and 350 under £12k


Agreed


In your opinion...... in my view they are within reach of the average private purchaser as can be seen with the uptake.

It's an interesting one, isn't it? We all live in our own "bubbles". What you might assume to be an average purchaser, or I might, is probably way off as we don't associate with the very large percentage of the UK, who are, frankly, dirt poor compared to ourselves and probably most Electricians on this forum!

A more accurate description should probably be "average middle class earner or comfortably well heeled retired, private purchaser"

 

[PaulieN]

Erm... I very much doubt you are not causing pollution..

Well if he's running exclusively off solar, he's certainly not causing pollution beyond the CO2 emissions to produce the car, solar panels, & associated kit. Oh, and a little rubber tyre particle pollution.

 

[johnb2713]

Erm... I very much doubt you are not causing pollution..

Doubt away, predominantly green energy from solar or Octopus, i3 made in a green factory and is recyclable. If not causing pollution is incorrect, creating substantially less pollution.

 

[Murdoch]

Doubt away, predominantly green energy from solar or Octopus, i3 made in a green factory and is recyclable. If not causing pollution is incorrect, creating substantially less pollution.

do you believe that all your octopus energy is green then ?

 

[johnb2713]

And please do NOT suggest that the premature death of a granddaughter and their need to do multiple longer journeys, several days in succession to support family members is crap and not a normal need.

I never said such a thing about your granddaughter and certainly wouldn't, you seem to read into things what you want to believe. You have my sympathies over your granddaughter, I have just become a grandparent 8 weeks ago for the first time and I cant imagine how I would cope with such a loss.

 

[johnb2713]

do you believe that all your octopus energy is green then ?

From the Octopus website:-
"At Octopus we use renewable energy sources primarily from wind, solar and hydro (water) sources to power our 100% green electricity. As the majority of UK homes still use gas, we also provide our Supergreen tariff where customers can offset the carbon emissions produced by the gas part of their energy usage."
It seems pretty green to me?

 

[Murdoch]

From the Octopus website:-
"At Octopus we use renewable energy sources primarily from wind, solar and hydro (water) sources to power our 100% green electricity. As the majority of UK homes still use gas, we also provide our Supergreen tariff where customers can offset the carbon emissions produced by the gas part of their energy usage."
It seems pretty green to me?

hook, line and sinker

 

[johnb2713]

Well if he's running exclusively off solar, he's certainly not causing pollution beyond the CO2 emissions to produce the car, solar panels, & associated kit. Oh, and a little rubber tyre particle pollution.

The i3 factory was powered by it's own wind and solar farms and was predominantly carbon neutral. The i3 itself is made from a lot of recycled materials and all of it can be recycled. The mention of rubber particle etc needs to be taken into context with other vehicles and from that point of view it as no worse and just a slight chance it's better. The tyres were designed to have less rolling resistance and therefore will produce less rubber particles.

 

[johnb2713]

hook, line and sinker

Well go on then educate us all with your superior knowledge of all things Octopus?