Electricity At Work Regs

[the doctor]

Hi all

it has been a long time but here goes....let me give you an imaginary scenario...

I am a pv inspector and have visited a job for passing off.

the house has two consumer units fed from two one way units in the meter cupboard.

the pv is connected into the upstairs unit and is a good job.

the downstairs consumer unit has an information schematic fixed next to it and has two blanks missing  so no basic protection. Yes 20p worth of blanks...

am I wrong to snag this. The electrician says he never worked on the downstairs board though he was right next to it...

my view is that the eawr places a duty upon him to do something about a clear and obvious risk to people wether he was on it or not...

who is right here ? Can forum members help me out here please. 

The doctor

 

[NozSpark]

In the UK he should IMHO he should have done something about it,,,, but in EIRE (if you're still living there) the EAWR probably doesn't exist

 

[M107]

If he's not worked on the board or circuits served by the board then I'd give him the benefit........having said that I would have let him know, if he'd been working for me he'd have gained a thick ear....A couple of blank is nothing to do as a feel good extra.

 

[kerching]

I would be tempted just to stick two blanks in and say i had found them on the floor....probably wrong, but.........

just.....going to bed

 

[the doctor]

A requirement under law to remove obvious danger?

i am reading the eawr and it talks of....

being in control of a situation and reasonably practicable..... My view is that if you see a great danger, you are obliged to not look the other way..... I am searching for that now but need guidance...

Hi M107,

as I said the electrician put a schematic next to the board in question.... So he was sort of working on it

 

[M107]

I suppose anybody with a modicum of intelligence would plonk a couple of blanks in.

But it could be argued he hasn't tampered or altered any circuit from that board................now you could go down the route of, how has he got the required information of the circuits for the schedule........probably by removing the cu cover? 

In this case he is bang to rites, he has removed the cover so it is his responsibility to put it back so as to comply with regs.

 

[OnOff]

By not recognising / reporting the mising blanks then IMO Part 2, Reg 7 applies ref protection of conductors. You could even query his competency under Reg 16.

If not the EAWR then HASAWA 74...........the employee, in this case the sparks has a responsiblity to "others".

The bloke would have been better to say "fair cop" rather than argue the toss.

 

[septiclecky]

OK it was only 20p to fit 2 blanks but the thing is where do you stop, does he have to carry out a full inspection of the installation before he connects the PV system to the installation to ensure it is safe to do so

 

[Sidewinder]

Myself I would have put the blanks in, but, it is a grey area.

I have even fitted blanks to a board when doing a survey for quote FOC, and knew I would not get the work, but, due to the access to & location of the DB, I would not have slept if someone had been injured by the situation.

Should "he" have, dunno, I'd like to say yes, but, as has been said how far do you go?

TBH, even insulation tape would have been a start & better than nothing!

I guess that the Solar install does not come under MCS or attract FIT then?

As if it did I would be questioning the location of the feed in point...

Also, as has been said, not sure if you are still in Eire, thus what regs etc. apply there.

Septic, you are on to something there, I believe that yes, it should have been done, by a person competent and experienced.

However, this would not have been in the best interests of the charlatans that were rife in controlling the install industry a little while ago.

It would have been a good chance to have got installations up to scratch.

 

[apprentice87]

I think you would have an obligation to inform the client, but as for doing something about it, no law can make you do that.... Say you found a dangling cable, would you drill holes in a wall to secure it?? That would be criminal damage.

As for any "duty to act if you see something dangerous" does that mean i can go round inspecting the neighbours cars and impounding them if their tyres are not very good, or can i just wander into the local factory and pull the fuses if i think their wiring is not too clever?? I am going to McDonalds later, can i tell all the customers to leave because the potentially hot food might burn them....

Here is a better example; Say i take my car to a garage to have a new set of plugs. Is the garage obliged by law to fit new tyres and adjust the brakes while they are at it?? of course not.

john..

 

[Sidewinder]

john,

Quite, but, there are other things to consider also.

The "scam" membership rules do define certain levels of what you "must" do.

IIRC the NIC "rules" state that you cannot leave a C1 on an EICR without doing something about it.

If you think about it, a C1 is dangerous to the extent that the inspector could get injured doing the EICR, else it would be a C2 etc...

HASAWA & EAWR also impose a responsibility on competent persons.

 

[septiclecky]

john,

Quite, but, there are other things to consider also.

The "scam" membership rules do define certain levels of what you "must" do.

IIRC the NIC "rules" state that you cannot leave a C1 on an EICR without doing something about it.

If you think about it, a C1 is dangerous to the extent that the inspector could get injured doing the EICR, else it would be a C2 etc...

HASAWA & EAWR also impose a responsibility on competent persons.

They say this but in law you cannot legally pull fuses or do anything without the owners permission to make it safe unlike gas

 

[apprentice87]

Yes, but it is right what Paul is saying... You could always just turn the thing off at the isolator and attach a notice saying that if the turn it back on it is entirely up to them.. I knew someone that had a trailer factory once. If some came with a trailer that in the course of being worked on, my mate discovered something dangerous, he would write on the invoice that the trailer was dangerous adn should not be used. If the people carried on using it then, that was up to them!!!!!

john...

 

[Evans Electric]

This is a minefield of unexploded land mines by the look of it . 

As many others on here I  guess, I have a bin full of blanks in the van and working next to that board I'd probably stick them in .  Question is, where does one stop ?   I'm a great exponent of maintaining that we are NOT the ELECTRIC POLICE .      I take the point about spotting a C1  but who is paying me to start working away at this property , putting stuff right ? 

Years back I went into an office block switchroom to pull a fuse and saw a 500A BBC  without a front cover and no sign of it .   People stored cleaning stuff in there and chairs etc .   No one was interested ,  " Its always been like that , no one else has said anything "     Probably still is. 

Did a PIR at a house , young couple moving in , big chunk of plastic broken off the 100A  cut-out exposing a live connection .    I phoned it in to the DNO who said I wasn't the houseowner / billpayer and were not interested .  

Ate my sarnie , made a cuppa , phoned it in again with the addendum that the owner's children were playing making a den in there .

Jointer's van rolled up 1/2 hour later

Back on topic ,  as we have discussed before , the safety of the installation at a property is the responsibility of the owner , we can advise , but we have no power .   And as soon as you start messing , you are becoming responsible as the last man in .

Edit :-    At the printing company I look after , I do stuff like that all the time .  But even so when I discovered a load of old fluorescent fittings , still powered up , no tubes, above a suspended ceiling , contractors just flexed off them to lay-ins and removed the tubes ,  old Thorn   ballasts red hot,   they did'nt agree to rewiring until 3 of them had melted in shower of red hot carp & two actually set fire.  

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I think in this particular situation the cost of doing remedial work...

be it blanks or a bit of tape over the hole - vs - the danger of leaving it open makes it perfect common sense to just do the fix... 

BUT..

in other situations where a bit more cost was involved..

say a complete damaged or missing front cover...

(I have seen some customers with NO front cover on their CU!!!!!)

I cannot see how anyone can enforce someone to do some remedial work at their own cost with no guarantee they will be reimbursed for the materials they have used... 

However if you were quoting to do some work on an installation with some essential remedial costs..

I would think you have to include costs to bring the installation to a safe condition as well as the new work..

OR don't do the new work...

In principal same as the checking earthing and bonding before doing any alterations!!

EAWR do still refer to what measures are "reasonably practical" in certain situations...

So although we have a duty of care..

We are not obliged to run our business at a loss doing unauthorized remedial works..

If something was both dangerous and too expensive for a quick fix...

then removing power and a danger notice is a cheap reasonably practical solution IMHO..

So in this case any competent electrician knows it is not beyond the level of the most basic cheap tasks to stick some blanks over the holes!

Just as a garage may be obliged to advise you if your tyre tread is low..

but not to replace your tyres unless you have authorised them to do it!

thats my tuppence worth

Guinness

 

[Evans Electric]

Just about sums it up TBH.

 

[Marvo]

Sometimes you have to consider what's being legally implied by even the smallest remedial actions. If you install some blanks on a board or maybe fit a missing label are you then implying the board is safe because you as a professional have performed remedial work? Wouldn't you then at least need to whip the cover off and make a visual check? Maybe do a quick Ze as well just to be safe?

 

[Sidewinder]

I don't think so Marvo, though, I can see your point.

I would be covering myself with paperwork detailing what I had found, seen, done, and more to the point what I had not seen, found, done, and recommending that there are further & fuller investigations done, before the installation is used any further in an energised state for example, even though I would have to leave it energised, I would be recommending that it were isolated perhaps.

The responsibility for the install lay with the client.

 

[Marvo]

Although I'm playing devils advocate as much as anything else I think it's something that should always be a consideration but as you say the paperwork is key and communication would be necessary to ensure the client is in possession of the facts and understands their responsibilities. It's always important to cover yourself no matter how small and inconsequential a repair you carry out. To be honest if the board looked ill maintained or poorly installed I probably wouldn't install blanks, maybe stick some hazard tape over the gap.

 

[Jono Pashley]

I have a site where i should probably put hazard tape around the whole building................