Lat And Plaster With Downlighters

[shed69]

Hi all,

What do you guys put on EICR for downlighters with halogens in lat and plaster, I've always been under impression they shouldn't have been installed in 1st place and have them as code 2's with a view to retro fitting with leds to take the heat element out of it.... I've spoken with 2 or 3 different tech help at NICEIC and they all seem to have difference of opinions with this.... These are non fire rated fittings too.......

Also if they were to be in fire rated cannisters with halogens would this suffice also, given that there is no fire rating given to a lat and plaster ceiling but at least the halogens wouldn't be able to gather dust/combustable materials around there.....

Whats the opinions

see attached pic of what im talking about

 

[Evans Electric]

Can't see the pic Shed !!

I can only give my own view which is , I never entertain the use of the open non fire rated fittings  TBH  .  I've seen them with newspaper on top of them  slowly charring away ready to burn .

 

[m4tty]

I'm same as Sandra ^^ . I use fire rated fittings the can type and have installed loads in lathe and plaster ceilings and never had a problem yet. Them open downlighters I wouldn't entertain either

 

[m4tty]

Then again NIC tech are your best bet as you have to follow their rules I suppose, but they're all saying different. Says it all really lol

 

[Doc Hudson]

This industry is full of myths and half truths about what can and cannot be fitted where. Without seeing the manufactures instructions about where the lights are permitted to be installed it is hard to say if they are dangerous or not, as there is no direct regulation stating where down lights can be fitted. Are you worried about the lath or the open back. If the surrounding laths have signs of direct heat damage then there is probably something not right, but if any fitting can get so hot, as to char the lath's, then I suspect it would also damage any plasterboard ceiling, its paper, and or paint. The greater risk with a lot of down lights is poor connections, e.g. open joints with no cable restraints or enclosures. Obviously open backed fittings are a greater risk than fire rated, but even fire rated can get buried under stuff in a loft and overheat as well. There are also a lot of halogen down lights that fit directly into chipboard wardrobes and kitchen units, are these also considered an immediate or potential danger?

Doc H.

 

[shed69]

All taken on board, I wouldnt use them but its something I come across a lot of already fitted on EICR's and am questioning whether code 2 is the correct code to use.....?? Also just because there is no sign of heat damage today doesn't mean it can't start tomorrow with them does it? Or am I thinking too deep....!

 

[Doc Hudson]

If the lights have been fitted and in use for a reasonable time and there is no signs of overheating, then they are unlikely to cause overheating in the near future. Another way to look at the issues is, do you honestly consider that the items you have found need urgent remedial work. Or just improvement recommended at the customers earliest convenience?  If you look at the guidance notes for recipients for an EICR in appendix 6, it suggest Code 1 requires immediate remedial work as the users are in danger. Code 2 requires urgent remedial work as users may be in danger. If lath and plaster down lights seriously needed immediate or urgent remedial work, I suspect there would be a lot more regular lath combustion house fires. I guess every electrician sees a lot of installation methods of various accessories that we do not approve of, nor that we would do ourselves, but that by definition does not automatically make them a code 1 or 2. Possibly try to think of how you can justify your opinion by breach of regs or manufactures guidance or any statutory laws. Most genuine code 1's or 2's could probably be justified by one of the above. However, as always regs and EICR's are down to the interpretation of the person undertaking the work and two electricians could both interpret the same installation differently! Which is why GN3 states that the person carrying out the inspection should have sufficient knowledge and experience for the type of installations being inspected.

Doc H.   

 

[NozSpark]

IMHO it doesn't matter if the cans are fire/acoustic rated when they are installed in a lathe and plaster ceiling,,,,, what does matter is that they should be F rated - suitable for fitting on a normally combustible surface (marked with a letter "F" within an upside down triangle)

 

[Steve3948]

Step back 20 years before we had fire rated and most if not all were just open back.