Can a non time served (short course) person call themselves an Electrician

[ROADESPARKY]

Sorry bit late on this one. How can someone class themself as an electrician after admitting being self taught and only doing a short course? A proper apprentice doing the full course spends anywhere up to 4 years! How can you be self taught and only do a quick course to get the papers? What happened to experience??? Willl be out of your depth if you don't watch out!! They only managing to devalue a real skilled profession.

 

[safedepth]

Considering the definition of the word electrician, what do you suggest as a name?

Full course apprentices may feel peed off about this but the simple fact is, Electrician is still only a name. It is not a title awarded exclusively. Maybe such a word should exist but electrician is not currently it.

 

[jameseye12]

Sorry bit late on this one. How can someone class themself as an electrician after admitting being self taught and only doing a short course? A proper apprentice doing the full course spends anywhere up to 4 years! How can you be self taught and only do a quick course to get the papers? What happened to experience??? Willl be out of your depth if you don't watch out!! They only managing to devalue a real skilled profession.

Get your facts straight.

I have not once said anywhere that I am an electrician, so I dont know where you got that from, you probably saw something and jumped to a conclusion without engaging your brain first. And as for what you're saying, you cant judge me, you've never met me, so dont form an opinion based on what you read here, and I'm hardly out of my depth, if i dont feel confident about a job, i wouldnt take it on, and dont tar me with the same brush as all 5ww, there are people who do apprenticeships and do a s*** job. Those people tend to develop little man syndrome and spend their time bitching about '5ww' on internet forums

Grow Up

 

[steptoe]

the fact is jameseye12, I can judge you, and will, I'll admit that, unlike some others that will judge you and not admit it, and I'll bet you have judged me too,

and until you can prove otherwise to me then my opinion of 5ww applies.!

no-one can stop anyone having an opinion or making a judgement, and your opinion of yourself proves little more than arrogance, much like most of the 5ww I have met.

there are good 5ww out there, and there are bad apprenticeship sparks out there, but I'll bet a pound to a penny that the bad 5ww by far outnumber the apprenticeship guys in the "all the kit, full of **it" category.

safedepth,

it has been suggested many times , 'domestic electrical installer without a proper apprenticeship' could be used, especially on all your stationery and business cards would be a good start.

if you dont like being a non electrician then go back to what you were doing before you decided to be a wannabe skilled tradesman and drag our skilled profession into a downward spiral,

its that simple, you are what you are, and its NOT an electrician.

 

[safedepth]

In some respects your stubborn refusal to see the words in front of you could be admired. I simply find it irksome. The word electrician is simply that. Your apprenticeship is not the reason you can call yourself an electrician. It's because your job fits in with the definition.

 

[Manator]

I am classed as an electrical engineer by title, but when asked I always say I am an electrician.

 

[steptoe]

so what do you think the general public expect to get when they employ an 'electrician' ,

someone who has learnt to read and use an index,?

or a time served tradesman?

if you employed a decorator would you expect to get someone who knew how to open a tin of paint and mix some paste?

or a joiner, is that just a bloke that happens to own a hammer and saw?

maybe I should do plumbing,? I have my own pipe-slice and blowtorch.

I could even become a driving instructor, I have a car.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:44 ----------

the point is, having something doesnt give you the right to claim to be a professional or skilled in its use.

 

[revjames]

Get your facts straight.I have not once said anywhere that I am an electrician, so I dont know where you got that from, you probably saw something and jumped to a conclusion without engaging your brain first. And as for what you're saying, you cant judge me, you've never met me, so dont form an opinion based on what you read here, and I'm hardly out of my depth, if i dont feel confident about a job, i wouldnt take it on, and dont tar me with the same brush as all 5ww, there are people who do apprenticeships and do a s*** job. Those people tend to develop little man syndrome and spend their time bitching about '5ww' on internet forums

Grow Up

if the cap fits....

 

[Steve3948]

For me a proper Electrician should be able to do it all, every aspect of the trade, Domestic, Commercial and Industrial, everything to do with each field and that can only be achieved with years of experience.

It not just about slinging a few sockets in a house and saying because I can do that I'm an Electrician, almost every keen diy'er can do that.

JamesEye12 - when you said you have been doing it 10 years and you are only 19, well that explains it all.

The distribution boards you did on the farm showed you lacked experience, sorry but true, look at your tails, very untidy and if you worked for me I would have you tidy that up, also positions of everything could have been better thought out, again lack of experience.

How an earth could you be doing electrical work age 9, come on please.

 

[safedepth]

An interesting thought. What is required in order to call oneself an engineer. I was an engineer in the RN. This was the title given to me by them. I was an engineering technician in the IET. Despite these reputable credentials I have steptoe moaning that I call myself an electrician when the Oxford english dictionary says I should.

 

[steptoe]

An interesting thought. What is required in order to call oneself an engineer. I was an engineer in the RN. This was the title given to me by them. I was an engineering technician in the IET. Despite these reputable credentials I have steptoe moaning that I call myself an electrician when the Oxford english dictionary says I should.

does EAWR say you should?

I think knowing how to read and use an index would be hard to use in a court of law,

and as the RN and the IET are not legally binding in this instance Im sure any sort of half decent lawyer would have your claims laughed out the door.

I havent moaned that you call yourself an 'electrician' , I have simply stated that that is a grossly fraudulent statement,

I can sail a boat, does that make me a sailor? , good, another worthless title I can bestow upon myself.

 

[Jono Pashley]

Ran out of space on my new stationary with all the titles i decided to give myself.

 

[Manator]

I fully understand what each poster has tried to say in this thread. There are some reasons to totally rip apart those who by definition are not electricians.

A short course without the time spent on the job to really learn the trade will always leave you short on the knowledge needed to overcome some problems. I would however not tar all with the same brush.

I served my time when employment and the economy were good, and training was almost a guarantee. Today because of the education system and the way that employment law has changed it is harder to gain an apprenticeship and indeed keep it.

If called to count in a court of law to prove competency it will always take a set procedure. Firstly the qualifications you have will be discussed, the level of education and intellect required to pass such exams will be discussed.

This is a very important part for a prosecution witness, some exams can be easily passed if you have an IQ that is above the average and could be passed even without any electrical training whatsoever.

We have a resident Vet on this forum; did you know it takes longer to train as a vet than it does for a doctor? I would also suggest that he could pass the 2391 without even breaking a sweat.

Qualifications have recently been questioned, one reason for this is that most training establishments are basing their courses on pass results and not the basic knowledge base required.

So having the qualifications does not make you competent. They can be proven to establish that you have a basic understanding and the ability to pass the test only.

After qualifications your experience will be called to question. This is really one area where if you are experienced in your trade, the sitting Judge will find it hard to dispute, and will in all cases refer to council to re assess their stand. It is very hard to quantify experience to a suitable standard and in reality any restriction to one particular environment could go against you.

The fact still remains it is very seldom that any electrician be it fully time served or the infamous 5WW is brought before the court. If it ever does happen to you then proving competency may be harder than you first thought.

 

[revjames]

Bloke behind counter in Mc Ds dishing out burgers gets called a manager

Bloke fitting tyres gets called a technician

Girl filing fingernails gets called a technician

Bloke who fixes washing machines gets called an engineer

And now just about anyone can call themselves an electrician if they are capable of inserting a BC lamp without burning their fingers.

who dishes out these titles? Kellogs?

 

[Evans Electric]

I fully understand what each poster has tried to say in this thread. There are some reasons to totally rip apart those who by definition are not electricians.A short course without the time spent on the job to really learn the trade will always leave you short on the knowledge needed to overcome some problems. I would however not tar all with the same brush.

I served my time when employment and the economy were good, and training was almost a guarantee. Today because of the education system and the way that employment law has changed it is harder to gain an apprenticeship and indeed keep it.

If called to count in a court of law to prove competency it will always take a set procedure. Firstly the qualifications you have will be discussed, the level of education and intellect required to pass such exams will be discussed.

This is a very important part for a prosecution witness, some exams can be easily passed if you have an IQ that is above the average and could be passed even without any electrical training whatsoever.

We have a resident Vet on this forum; did you know it takes longer to train as a vet than it does for a doctor? I would also suggest that he could pass the 2391 without even breaking a sweat.

Qualifications have recently been questioned, one reason for this is that most training establishments are basing their courses on pass results and not the basic knowledge base required.

So having the qualifications does not make you competent. They can be proven to establish that you have a basic understanding and the ability to pass the test only.

After qualifications your experience will be called to question. This is really one area where if you are experienced in your trade, the sitting Judge will find it hard to dispute, and will in all cases refer to council to re assess their stand. It is very hard to quantify experience to a suitable standard and in reality any restriction to one particular environment could go against you.

The fact still remains it is very seldom that any electrician be it fully time served or the infamous 5WW is brought before the court. If it ever does happen to you then proving competency may be harder than you first thought.

I sometimes wonder about that , Maneater , I hear the Judge say "And is the accused competent in his chosen profession ?"

And Rumpole says " Yes M'lud , he has a qualification from his local Polytech which I present before the court "

" Right that settles it then , case dismissed "

 

[safedepth]

I fully understand what each poster has tried to say in this thread. There are some reasons to totally rip apart those who by definition are not electricians.A short course without the time spent on the job to really learn the trade will always leave you short on the knowledge needed to overcome some problems. I would however not tar all with the same brush.

I served my time when employment and the economy were good, and training was almost a guarantee. Today because of the education system and the way that employment law has changed it is harder to gain an apprenticeship and indeed keep it.

If called to count in a court of law to prove competency it will always take a set procedure. Firstly the qualifications you have will be discussed, the level of education and intellect required to pass such exams will be discussed.

This is a very important part for a prosecution witness, some exams can be easily passed if you have an IQ that is above the average and could be passed even without any electrical training whatsoever.

We have a resident Vet on this forum; did you know it takes longer to train as a vet than it does for a doctor? I would also suggest that he could pass the 2391 without even breaking a sweat.

Qualifications have recently been questioned, one reason for this is that most training establishments are basing their courses on pass results and not the basic knowledge base required.

So having the qualifications does not make you competent. They can be proven to establish that you have a basic understanding and the ability to pass the test only.

After qualifications your experience will be called to question. This is really one area where if you are experienced in your trade, the sitting Judge will find it hard to dispute, and will in all cases refer to council to re assess their stand. It is very hard to quantify experience to a suitable standard and in reality any restriction to one particular environment could go against you.

The fact still remains it is very seldom that any electrician be it fully time served or the infamous 5WW is brought before the court. If it ever does happen to you then proving competency may be harder than you first thought.

My whole point is definitions. If we are to assume that the Oxford English dictionary provides us with definitions of words in common use In the English language then I can call myself an electrician. If however we listen to steptoe who believes the EAWR provides the true definition then there can be some debate. However the EAWR does not give a definition of electrician. Could some one who believes I am contravening a law please provide evidence of this. Not an opinion as that is not enforceable in a court of law. Provide evidence to support your opinions or shut the f##k up.

 

[professional]

The "Part P Industry" is desperately trying to ensure that the public cannot distinguish between truly competent electricians and the multitude of jokers out there - because given the correct information, guess who the public would chose? - and that would affect membership and (more importantly) the number of notifications as this is used as a yardstick for success of Part P.

Interestingly, no attempt is made to establish how many notified jobs ARE compliant with the building regs as the answer would be "difficult" .... and may well highlight the abuse of Scheme entry requirements.

The fact that such abuse continues (even though INDEPENDENT monitoring drew attention to this issue back in 2010) is seen as an inconvenience as the government wishes to REMOVE monitoring - due to the Scams being "overseen" (yeah, right) by UKAS.

The fact that the NICEIC has been in UKAS for years and still allows widespread abuse of the QS system speaks volumes about UKAS ....

 

[steptoe]

ok, well the oxford english dictionary is not statutory, so you can start by shutting TF up, you have already proved your arrogance .

EAWR IS statutory, and yet again I have to bang out regulation 16 to you, maybe if you stopped mouthing off and started listening then some day you may well become an electrician,

but no, in your arrogance you already know it all, after all, not only can you use an index and read, you can also use a dictionary too.

try it, it may just save someones life someday, not least your own, but hopefully darwinism will kick in soon enough,

its people like you that get forces personnel in general a bad name coming into the real world, 'know it all, wait for the fall' .

 

[Smilers]

I don't know about the rest of you but for the 1st year and a half of my apprenticeship my title was *****!! My work load consisted of getting tools and cable followed by tea and off to the shop for everyones pasties and crisps on my break time we I got back it "right back to work!"

When I did use a tool it was a bolster and lump hammer- "right chase that lot out" and no your not using my new rotary stop Makita **** off!!

Your initiation must have been bad Steptoe !! I still do not understand why you care what others are or are not or what they call themselves. Be greatfull that you are one of the lucky few that had an old school proper apprenticeship I don't think those opportunities exist for many these days.

It seems to me that the people who complete a shorter course are Adult learners who couldn't afford the

 

[safedepth]

ok, well the oxford english dictionary is not statutory, so you can start by shutting TF up, you have already proved your arrogance .EAWR IS statutory, and yet again I have to bang out regulation 16 to you, maybe if you stopped mouthing off and started listening then some day you may well become an electrician,

but no, in your arrogance you already know it all, after all, not only can you use an index and read, you can also use a dictionary too.

try it, it may just save someones life someday, not least your own, but hopefully darwinism will kick in soon enough,

its people like you that get forces personnel in general a bad name coming into the real world, 'know it all, wait for the fall' .

I said evidence, gobshite. Where is it. Not in reg 16.