Missing cpc on lighting circuit

[J'adore electrics]

Evening All

Little advice from the wise please and thank you.

Recent EICR found old 2wire double insulated lighting circuits with some metal class 1 fittings in a domestic property.
Client cannot afford the rewire option along with the decorative works that would also cause.
So my suggested solution would be all class 2 pendants throughout along with change metal back box to plastic.
Along with a RCBO DB upgrade as it’s a 3036 DB.
Could I do anything else to aid this suggestion?

Also I’m presuming this would also be a departure?

TIA guys

 

[Fleeting]

You cannot use Class II as a means of protection in a dwelling.
Fitting an rcbo may improve the situation however you cannot provide ADS in the absence of a cpc, as I say you cannot state Class II.

 

[Andy™]

thats pretty much all you can do

 

[Murdoch]

Good on the customer to have the EICR in the first place assuming it’s not a rental.

What you suggest is ok. The only thing I would possibly comment on is the plastic back box, maybe just fit the plastic “covers” over the fixing screws.

 

[J'adore electrics]

Good on the customer to have the EICR in the first place assuming it’s not a rental.

What you suggest is ok. The only thing I would possibly comment on is the plastic back box, maybe just fit the plastic “covers” over the fixing screws.

Thank murdoch
This is a good suggestion.

 

[J'adore electrics]

You cannot use Class II as a means of protection in a dwelling.
Fitting an rcbo may improve the situation however you cannot provide ADS in the absence of a cpc, as I say you cannot state Class II.

Ah ok, this is why I’d thought I’d ask.

I realise ads will not be achieved via the lighting circuits, hence assuming this would then be a departure.
the rewire really isn’t a viable option and I’m not aware or experienced any other options?

Any other options out there for this scenario?

 

[Murdoch]

At the end of the day, you can't make a customer improve their home so the steps you are suggesting will make it safer so you will have made improvements, so lets hope they agree to this.

If they don't, just walk away

 

[mort2376]

Just had a similar situation. Cu change done, bathroom lights to class 2 and 2 pendants installed to replace metal fittings.

Earth warning sticker on the board and note everything on the certificate.

If on an rcbo then ads would be complied with ???

 

[Murdoch]

Just had a similar situation. Cu change done, bathroom lights to class 2 and 2 pendants installed to replace metal fittings.

Earth warning sticker on the board and note everything on the certificate.

If on an rcbo then ads would be complied with ???

Had this a few years ago and the customer let me change her metal lights to pendents. A few months later she had a small issue - so I returned and noticed the metal lights were back up. This wasn't the reason she called me and I said nothing. My certificate was clear about why they had replaced with Class II

 

[Fleeting]

Just had a similar situation. Cu change done, bathroom lights to class 2 and 2 pendants installed to replace metal fittings.

Earth warning sticker on the board and note everything on the certificate.

If on an rcbo then ads would be complied with ???

No ADS is not complied with in the absence of a cpc. You cannot list this as a departure and notes on Certification and stickers will mean nothing should you wind up in court should something go wrong. Class II cannot be used in a dwelling, Class II installations must be supervised.

 

[Fleeting]

Had this a few years ago and the customer let me change her metal lights to pendents. A few months later she had a small issue - so I returned and noticed the metal lights were back up. This wasn't the reason she called me and I said nothing. My certificate was clear about why they had replaced with Class II

This is a classic case of notes and stickers being pointless they will never cover you should something go wrong, the client is not likely to understand what you have provided and given.

 

[Murdoch]

OP

consult this, especially section 7

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2146/bpg1.pdf

 

[Murdoch]

This is a classic case of notes and stickers being pointless they will never cover you should something go wrong, the client is not likely to understand what you have provided and given.

rubbish

my certificate was crystal clear, as was the sticker on the board.

this would protect me

 

[Fleeting]

rubbish

my certificate was crystal clear, as was the sticker on the board.

this would protect me

Not necessarily rubbish but it is your prerogative as to what you do. Your case is clear that the client either didn't understand the consequences of putting in place Class I fittings or they just ignored your notes and stickers. Should something go wrong they will opt for not understanding and that may well land at your doorstep.

 

[Jdinduntocher]

No ADS is not complied with in the absence of a cpc. You cannot list this as a departure and notes on Certification and stickers will mean nothing should you wind up in court should something go wrong. Class II cannot be used in a dwelling, Class II installations must be supervised.

There were thousands of houses wired in this type of cable in the late 70s early eighties before they withdrew it. The use of class 2 fittings throughout was standard, the problem arises when house owner puts metal fittings on themselves as electricians would point this out. So these houses were compliant when built and as the regulations are not retrospective you can not make them rewire lights. I had a similar situation but the woman said she had just had the house decorated and was not doing it ,it had worked ok for years so what was the problem

 

[Fleeting]

There were thousands of houses wired in this type of cable in the late 70s early eighties before they withdrew it. The use of class 2 fittings throughout was standard, the problem arises when house owner puts metal fittings on themselves as electricians would point this out. So these houses were compliant when built and as the regulations are not retrospective you can not make them rewire lights. I had a similar situation but the woman said she had just had the house decorated and was not doing it ,it had worked ok for years so what was the problem

You cannot use Class II as protection in a dwelling no matter how you look at it.

 

[J'adore electrics]

There were thousands of houses wired in this type of cable in the late 70s early eighties before they withdrew it. The use of class 2 fittings throughout was standard, the problem arises when house owner puts metal fittings on themselves as electricians would point this out. So these houses were compliant when built and as the regulations are not retrospective you can not make them rewire lights. I had a similar situation but the woman said she had just had the house decorated and was not doing it ,it had worked ok for years so what was the problem

This is exactly same position Im in.
Client is happy to go ahead with my suggestion which seems to be the only viable option as others have mentioned.

Im aware of fleetings concerns regarding class 2 as a form of ads and the

OP

consult this, especially section 7

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2146/bpg1.pdf

thank you murdoch
I didn’t realise the level of info in this document.
Thanks again for bringing this to my attention.

 

[J'adore electrics]

Thank you all for advice and comments and based on all of this I’m able to make an engineering judgement……….to which I’ll hold you all responsible

Joking aside thank you again, have taking all on board advice and comments

 

[Fleeting]

This is exactly same position Im in.
Client is happy to go ahead with my suggestion which seems to be the only viable option as others have mentioned.

Im aware of fleetings concerns regarding class 2 as a form of ads and the

thank you murdoch
I didn’t realise the level of info in this document.
Thanks again for bringing this to my attention.

You aren't in any position it is the clients problem and you are about to make it your problem too. Class II is not a form of ADS.

 

[Murdoch]

You aren't in any position it is the clients problem and you are about to make it your problem too. Class II is not a form of ADS.

Our responsibility is to make installations safer and from what has been stated the installation will be safer, so the OP has achieved the principle goal.

Its not his fault that they can't afford the bells and whistles rewire, so a pragmatic approach is best IMHO

PLUS doing nothing means leaving an potentially unsafe installation unsafe.